Nov 12: Critiquing astrology

As astrologers we each have our style, preferences, and orientation for our practice. Every month, we choose a question about our professional astrology practice, and collect your responses here.
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Dvora
 
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Nov 12: Critiquing astrology

Postby Dvora » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:14 am

Dear Forum visitors,

It goes with out saying that we all love astrology. We praise it and so passionate about it's wisdom. We study it, we use it, we defend it, we talk about it, we write books and articles about it, not to mention all the books we acquire with the thirst to know more. And don't we spend lots of money and travel miles and miles, to attend conference and to meet each other?
So, like with everything we love in life, children, partners, friends and family, we love them BUT there are things we don't like about them. Talking about it does not take a bit from our love towards them. Expressing those feeling,only shows how confident we are in our relationship with them.
The same with Astrology: I believe that expressing our reservations, only strengths our involvement with astrology and shows the world how confidant we are about our craft
Saying that, please share your reservations and frustrations with astrology and what you think its limitations are .

The question might seem too broad to you. And it is. So, please feel free to express just a couple of your thoughts (or more). After all, sharing and participating is the name of the game.

So much looking to see you,
Warmly yours,

Dvora
http://www.DrDvora.com

PS: The deadline for your response is November 29. By then I will be visiting my family in Israel.

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Re: Nov 12: Critiquing astrology

Postby Cinderella11 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:49 am

Too many myths, too many phonies! The passion has to come from within. Are all astrologers destined to practice astrology?

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Re: Nov 12: Critiquing astrology

Postby Maurice » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:49 am

Here are replies on the question from FACEBOOK

Adam Galblum Great topic. For me it's the internal contradictions: tropical vs sidereal, Placidus vs whole sign, etc ..... When I'm making the case for astrology's efficacy, I often get stuck here, and end up quoting Rick Levine: "The horoscope works because it's MAGIC." Tho I personally agree with Rick, it doesn't help when explaining astrology to a newcomer.
November 12 at 8:17am · Unlike · 2

Dale Kellogg I am not bothered by the "how does it work". Modern science doesn't fully understand how much of what we use everyday works! What I find frustrating is the sheer volume of knowledge required to be a decent astrologer. The only way I have found to "learn" it is to DO it-- many charts, lots of discussions with other students/practitioners and self-study, once you have had the good fortune to do a good course (thank you MF!).
November 12 at 8:30am · Like · 1

Jeremy Wood As Dale wrote.. Learning by doing.. As it relates to its limitations etc, it seems to totally depend on what one puts into it. I guess, as someone who has been studying it for like 5 years now it comes from for me, as Adam wrote.. This differences bring up the whys and the hows. Certainly if trying to explain how it works.

Nancy Best For years, I suffered angst over how the precession of the equinoxes have changed the location of the planets from the earth's viewpoint. Are we stuck in the past? Are we evolving or devolving? The conclusion I came to through experience is that Astrology just plain works! As Adam quoted Rick Levine: It's MAGIC. A Caroline Casey quote:" Magic is simply a willingness to cooperate with everything!"
November 12 at 9:17am · Like · 1

Joseph Mina Where Astrology shines is in the realm of exploring life potential and direction. To the masses, that's probably the most valuable gift astrology can offer. Astrology's detriment occurs IMO when its technical nature overrides its basic structure. For most people "keeping it simple" is much more useful when discussing trends, tendencies and possibilities.
November 12 at 10:56am · Like · 1

Jeremy Wood Nancy said it well.. "Astrology works". A mind mirror of sorts. More then getting caught up in the idea of old school mechanistic cause/effect thinking.
November 12 at 12:00pm via mobile · Like

Lie Scar I think astrology is valuable as a teaching tool. Im not into magic and prediction. Astrology can help open people to possibilities or it can lock them into projection. The archetypes as we know them are only based on the past. There is allot more to come hopefully.
As far as differing systems and internal contradictions of astrology: are there any? -maybe just different tools/filters.
November 12 at 2:46pm · Like

Maurice Fernandez
Thank you all for your thoughts - I will write more about it, but in a nutshell, I believe that we have to consider astrology does not give us context...the chart does not determine if the subject is male/female or at all if it is a human being...let a...See More
November 15 at 4:42pm · Edited · Like

Dvora Weil So is it valid to state that those are astrology limitations? It does not take a bit from astrology awesomeness.
November 17 at 10:23am · Unlike · 1

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Re: Nov 12: Critiquing astrology

Postby Maurice » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:02 pm

Mary Lewis
My main critique is generalizations which simply do not hold up with a whole chart analysis and what I think is a deeper look at archetypes. More depth and breadth with the archetypes and rooting them in what is a fundamental purpose and "work" in existence, beyond superficial stereotypes that we often hear. Increased work on the vital importance of houses and their part in each of the 12 archetypal interpretations.

I have an ongoing issue with planets and energies being classified and referred to as specifically male/female. Certainly enculturation is very important, but in and of themselves, I do not believe at all that these energies are at all male/female bound.
4 hours ago · Edited · Like

A great sadness I feel is the bickering and denunciation and "you can't prove it" that occurs between streams of astrology. Over time, it seems clear to me that different streams of astrology do indeed *work.* This is a mystery, but then just *how* astrology as a whole works remains a mystery if we are talking about any kind of scientific explanation. I would like to see the "cold shoulder" and distrustfulness between different schools of astrology dissolve. It only hurts us all. As an evolutionary astrologer I do not pretend to be able to undertstand a number of other streams of astrology. We have our paths and specializations and I dare say, karmic "fits" as to what resonates with each of us in this area. Let us at the very least practice a postive tolerance.

I feel uncomfortable with computer programs that essentially do chart readings. I understand how some of these can be useful, especially for people who cannot afford a "regular" reading. But, i am under the impression that these may also be used more than I know among astrologers who are doing what is thought to be non-precookedwork. Now, as a counter argument to what I have just written (very Gemini!) i have also been exposed to some pretty extraordinary computerized readings that I am in awe of. I decided a few years ago just to check this out out of curiosity and ordered 3 of astrodiensts (sic) reports and was fairly floored with them. Definitely 10 cuts above what I have been previously exposed to. And I have actually recommended to people who just don't feel ready or comfortable with consulting an actual astrologer to order one of these as an *introduction* on their path to beginning to embrace an astrological consult as something that could be useful to them. But overall, consultations which are born of computer reports concern me. Real people with free will who have made many choices in life and have been refined by much experience cannot be "packaged" by a computer generated reading.

Opps! It's late! So that is all for tonight. I salute OPA for being the broad based organization that it is. I feel that it really *is* concerned with quality and also, which is very dear to my heart, with really supporting and nurturing astrologers at all stages of development. Thank you!

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Re: Nov 12: Critiquing astrology

Postby Cinderella11 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:12 am

I just got 2 pretty accurate computer readings! crazy we can't develop our own! Maybe I will come up with the next, newest, Best new computer reading astrology software!!! I am a cap/sun Leo/moon, Aquarious/ mercury and pluto

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Re: Nov 12: Critiquing astrology

Postby Cinderella11 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:20 am

I'm so glad i found OPA! OPA rocks!! I would just say that the leaders need to get involved more, set an example of what YOU want, and on this site? Maurice is a great example of a great leader!

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Re: Nov 12: Critiquing astrology

Postby Maurice » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:10 am

Here are replies to the question gathered through emails:


Sandra Leigh
I think astrology has limitations. It is very good at predicting experience but not necessarily the event. Sometimes a client asks a question about relocating and I look at the chart and it is “fuzzy” which means it could go either way. At other times I look at the chart and it is very clear that the client WILL relocate because the transits, progressions, and eclipses all point to it. Often when I can’t get a clear answer I turn to my tarot cards to give me a more complete picture. I am frustrated with the “fuzzy” and often attribute it to the free will factor, that sometimes clients DO have a choice and other times, it is their destiny that the event takes place. I love astrology which I see as the study and unfoldment of cycles in a person’s life. But it is not an exact science and as a matter of fact it is an art and a science because interpreting planetary activity is the key to being a good astrologer and you need more than an observation of the cycles to interpret the planetary activity, you also need a bit of intuition to direct you in the right place.
Sandra Leigh
John Marchesella.
Actually, astrology does not irk me in that loving way the that family, friends and the rest of the human race (all of whom I love so much) do bug me. Or as I say to my students so many times, Astrology is always right, but astrologers are often wrong!
Astrology colleagues? Oh, we don't have enough room for my irks! The practice of astrology? Sure, it bugs the hell out of me in dozens of ways. My astrology clients? Hey, let's not get started!
But Astrology? Nope. It never bugs me, bothers me, irks me. Should a beginner student have his or her agony, doubt and ponderings? Absolutely! And I encourage it as a way of growth and coming to awareness, But at this point in my career as a professional astrology, no, actually, I don't have any complaints about astrology.
John


Patrick Lewis
From my point of view, reservations and frustrations we feel about Astrology, have nothing to do with the Philosophy. But has everything to do with how the individual person thinks and feels about the teaching. People on the planet, are alwayOne of my frustrations is that most astrologers that I know or have read appear to be saying that the planets don't actually influence us but we continue to use causal language to describe the planets 'impacting' our lives rather than their serving as a mirror, a reflection, an echo, a resonance with, an image of, etc. Perhaps some of this can be attributed to our language in the way it structures nouns verb-ing but maybe not. I've always felt the planets are within us and are us, not some outward agency affecting our lives. Saturn and 'me' are not two but one.s dicotomous in there approach to life. Good and bad, black and white, I like it, I don't like it. Applied Astrology is evelotion, it is a growing changing condition in Life. It is a way of looking at ones potential in life, and changing and growing with that potential. Reservations and frustrations are just opinions, and like everything else in Life, that too will change.
Patrick Lewis
Brad Kuchanas
One of my frustrations is that most astrologers that I know or have read appear to be saying that the planets don't actually influence us but we continue to use causal language to describe the planets 'impacting' our lives rather than their serving as a mirror, a reflection, an echo, a resonance with, an image of, etc. Perhaps some of this can be attributed to our language in the way it structures nouns verb-ing but maybe not. I've always felt the planets are within us and are us, not some outward agency affecting our lives. Saturn and 'me' are not two but one.
One other frustration, astrology organizations desiring to legitimize astrology as a profession may wish to work at getting astrology officially listed as a profession or a career in the government listing of professions, also working to have it listed as a helping profession rather than entertainment profession.
Brad

June Morrow
My frustration with Astrology is the language. I am continually aware of need to translate it to the non-Astrologer.

The other frustration I have is that most people have no idea what Astrology can do for them. It's not until I show someone how to succeed using Astrological energies (aspects) - and they succeed - that it's understood. That takes time.

Also, I find it most frustrating when I'm casually talking with someone and find out that they're learning Astrology on their own and when I suggest that they take lessons, join a group like OPA or any other Astrological organization...it appears they back off and have no interest in belonging to an organization. I feel there's more people than we can imagine who are interested in Astrology but not interested in joining an organization. How do we find and how do we reach people like that?

June Morrow, Astrologer
Evanston, IL

Victoria (Peltz) SmootThere is nothing wrong with Astrology. Each of us has limitations in comparison and we are all on a curve of learning which has no end. The Cosmos is set up that way, for endless discovery, inspiration, understanding and joy. To use these greater laws in conjunction with the laws of earth-bound life, it sometimes has to be and can be adjusted. And so it has been, as demonstrated by the many kinds of astrology that have been created. To study and use astrology carries some responsibility, I feel, to keep growing and learning, while we remain open to being amazed over and over again. No, if there is any "fault," it would be that our own faults are reflected right back to us.
Vicky
Tim Rubald
In 1960 a girl I flirted with asked me, "What's your Sign?" The only Sign I'd ever read anything about was my Sign. What I'd read was very complementary. I told her and she replied, "Oh, we don't get along then." Within a few days I was at the library where I emptied the shelves of any book with information about astrology (there weren't all that many in those days). I was determined to learn enough so that I could explain to that girl why she shouldn't pay attention to that old lady stuff.
I learned there actually was something to astrology but that there was also a sort of "astrology" that was stirred in with silliness along the lines of Johnny Carson's Karnak the Magnificent (too far back? How about Miss Cleo?) My critical thinking (used to be taught in classrooms) balanced with skepticism continues to this day. I learned there was much to astrology but also that some people would swallow things (like the current Mayan date) without checking and confirming.
My criticism is about a lack of criticism among some who accept and pass on inaccuracies without checking them. Astrologers need to be researchers. We need to be able to see and correlate astrology as a way of viewing and reflecting upon "everything under the Sun." Astrology always works. We need to humble ourselves before its Divine Reflection rather than squeeze it to fit preconceived notions.

Tim Rubald, C.A. NCGR-PAA, C.A.P. ISAR
808-986-8072
facebook.com/Tim.Rubalds.Astrology

Bob Mulligan
Is it Astrology or the astrologer?

“Astrology is the perfect science; out of a million astrologers one understands it.” – Meher Baba

Practicing astrologers occasionally have experiences with clients that turn out differently than they expected. This is the premise behind the first day of our OPA peer work, admitting personal fallibility is the beginning of our certification process. We agree that what we are looking for in this work is our own shortcomings. We don’t get together to talk about the limitations of astrology but rather, our own limitations as astrologers. So, when we stumble on a limitation of astrology, we are really discovering a limitation in ourselves as astrologers. Astrology is infinite, without limitation; the consciousness of every astrologer I have personally met is finite….and here in lies the difficulty.

Knowledgeable astrologers take advantage of unexpected consequences as opportunities to learn. Correctly handled, these interruptions to our flow of consciousness are the perfect opportunities for personal growth. To determine that our best understanding leaves us short of information is to open the door to possible learning. When approached with humility, our failures often teach us more than our successes.

When our astrology doesn’t describe the events we are studying then we need a new astrology. Astrology is vast, it is infinite. We simply need to keep growing and embracing an ever widening expression of our profession.
Two common forms of hubris amongst astrologers:
1) Where the astrologer blames the astrology itself, saying that astrology can not describe or predict some circumstance or happening.

2) Where the astrologer sees someone else do something that they can’t so they say that the other astrologer is psychic.

In the first instance, we have all heard from our colleagues when a client has asked them for information they were not prepared to give. We are all better when we just say that we can’t do what is being asked or we say that we don’t work this way. There is a divine order to the way information presents itself in our lives. I address the problem of sequencing of information in my book “Between Astrologers and Clients” when I share that it wouldn’t have helped me to know that I was going to be married three times when I was entering my first marriage. At the most practical level, I believe it was appropriate that no astrologer that I had seen up to this point had mentioned this to me.

Many times good practicing astrologers have shared with me that an incident happened in their life that the astrology did not explain or describe. Upon careful examination, the astrology always did describe the happening, when different systems or techniques were employed. This is one of the reasons that it behooves all of us to keep open and in discussion with our friends in astrology about our puzzlements over the day to day happenings in our job. As the British astrologer, Dennis Elwell once said, “We are trying to do something more dangerous and more delicate than brain surgery.” This is true; we need to always approach our craft with reverence.

To the second point, we all see astrologers, differently trained, doing something that looks magical to us. It is easy to attribute their results to something beyond astrology. The common explanation is that they are psychic.

On my first trip to India in 1976 I had the occasion to come across a few Indian astrologers. When I was at Pratapgad, the main fort of Shivaji near the town of Mahableshwar, I met an Indian astrologer. We talked through a translator. I asked him if he understood the major differences between Western astrology and Hindu astrology. He smiled at me and handed me a piece of paper and asked me to look at it as soon as my plane took off. I put this paper in my vest pocket and promptly forgot about it. Leaving India about a month later was very dramatic. Our plane was supposed to take off around midnight. I had a great difficulty with a custom’s officer and it required the entire luggage of the 747 to be unpacked so I could retrieve my tape player to show him….it was a long and very disrupted night. We all finally got on board our plane; just as the wheels of the plane lifted off of the ground I remembered the astrologer that I had spoken with way out in the country so many weeks ago. As life would have it, I was wearing the exact vest I had on when talking to him. I stuck my finger in my pocket and lifted this piece of paper he had given me. On the paper was scribbled “4:26 AM” - I looked at my wrist watch. It was exactly 4:26 AM.

Klaus Witze was a professor in charge of the interdisciplinary study program at University of Illinois, Champaign/Urbana campus. We would occasionally meet in the middle of the night at Bubby and Sadie’s Deli. Many of my students would study there and the night manager was one of my advanced students. Klaus had been studying world religions for several years and had meetings at his apartment every Sunday to read and compare scriptures. Many people attended. Klaus was going toIndia with the intent of meeting holy men and trying to measure their spiritual stature as a scientist. His training had been as a mathematician. I gave him the address of B.V. Raman, the great astrologer, editor of The Astrological Magazine, and Head of the Department of Astrology atBangalore University. About a year later I met Claus at the deli again….he said “oh, Bob, I have something to show you. I went to Raman’s home and when I rang the doorbell he answered and handed me this piece of paper. He said it is my birth chart and that he didn’t have time to read it for me. And then he closed the door.” Klaus handed me the chart. Raman had apparently calculated his exact birth chart before he arrived, even though he was coming without an introduction.

The world of astrology is full of the miraculous and we must be open to accepting things that are beyond our comprehension. For the most part, the greatest among us are barely “scratching the surface” of this vast discipline.

For A Better Astrology,
Bob Mulligan
President of The Astrology Company
Theastrologycompany.com
239-261-2840



Alice Kashuba
I would like to see more appreciation expressed for each other in the
community. Astrology is expressed and practiced in many different ways, but
sometimes I think we are our worst enemy - not the scientific community or
the outsiders. I would like to see more sharing as we do through these
questions. There are some very basic ideas that we all share yet are
expressed in a variety of ways and practiced with a variety of techniques.
The recent question about gender spoke to a very basic energy that exists in
our lives at all levels - male/female. Yet each person had a different idea
about to address the energy. It reminds me of a quote from a very old
StarTrek episode.

"The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity And in the way our differences combine to create meaning and beauty."
Alice
Arlan Wise
When I read this month's question, i had to stop and think about it for a long time. I love astrology, it is part of me and my life and my world view. But, since every front has a back, I had to look deeply and pull out my negative thoughts. I think what came forth is what i will call the "scare factor". We see it when we have to do damage control with clients who have had a bad reading and come to us worried and upset because of something they were told. "She said my daughter would have terrible trouble" "He said I would never have children". She said my husband and I are mismatched". We patiently explain how astrology is a symbolic language and every planet and sign has a range of meanings and it's not for an astrologer to give a negative prophecy when it could mean so many other things. That's easy to do and part of our job. However, the problem is when we do it to ourselves, and it's hard not to think that way. I saw Saturn moving up to square my Sun, how bad will it be? (It wasn't bad at all). The eclipse is on my granddaughter's moon - time to worry or not? We lose objectivity when we look at our own charts and a part of the mind tends to go to the dark places and it scares us. It can take over our lives and keep us frozen in place, like while Mercury is retrograde or we move between eclipses and know all the "terrible " things that could happen if we go against the planets. It's when we forget that it's more important how we act than when we act that the negative side of astrology shows up.

arlanw@vineyard.net
www.arlanwise.com
Alexanda Karakostas
I love the language of astrology! I apply it daily in my life; I study it, teach it, write about it and at times discuss it at great length.
Astrology is a valuable tool which helps us understand the cycles of life, from the personal to the collective. It provides perspective and promotes a deeper understanding of our experiences and our environment.
Studying historical patterns is fascinating and enlightening but trying to predict the future based solely on astrological patterns is unwise. One of my reservations about astrology is that it is a tool which can tend towards the predictive. This makes me uncomfortable. Though there are patterns and repetitive themes, we have never been here before. I think it’s essential that we remain open to the magic and mystery of life without trying so hard to determine what precisely is going to happen.
Alexandra
Dvora Weil
The shadow of astrology had occupied my mind for a long time. Is astrology perfect or is it the way we, humans, interact with astrology. Yes, it might be true that astrology is prefect and it is for us to find the right path to interact with it's wisdom. So getting this statement out of the way, I can now, freely, lay out my critique about astrology.
The challenges I find in interacting with the wisdom of astrology are: it's ambiguity; the numerous possibilities to one configuration that results some times in inconsistencies in the information that we provide our clients. Yes, astrology is a language of symbols signs and metaphors and as such the factor of ambiguity and elusiveness is a built in feature. In my work as a therapist, I choose my words very very carfully. I make sure I stand behind every statement I make, every suggestion I give. When it comes to using astrology I am evn more carful. To overcome this challenge, I will always read a chart while consulting with the client about whether what I am saying rings true to them. I felt this elusivness and generalizations when I had reading my chart done by differnt astrologers. There is a part of me that would have liked to get a more "conclusive and specific" results from a chart interpretation.
I also find it limiting for us, the users, that once we know a chart, especially ours, we remain captives of that structure, no matter how much we are convinced that we have free will. For example: I might forget a person's name but will I remember their charts.
OK, that is not astrology's fault. It belong to us, astrologers. So we can attribute this statement to the grip astrology has on us.
Also, Astrology does not tell us if an individual is a thief or a policeman, a librarian or a travel agent a preacher or a university professor, a male or a female. Can we discover all that ourselves? Yes. But it is missing from the chart.
Astrology does not tell us if a forecast will materialize or not. It tells us what might happen. Very often, all the right aspect are there but the event they symbolize is missing. That is why I believe we have to be so careful when giving predictions.

Saying all that does not take the greatness, the sacredness, the awesomeness the numinousity from astrology. We are blessed to have been handed over this language and more so for exploring it diligently.
Dvora
www.DrDvora.com

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Re: Nov 12: Critiquing astrology

Postby Maurice » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:30 am

To add to my comment above - in a nutshell - Astrology does not provide context, it does not indicate if the chart is for an event, male, female, and neither the culture the person is from...so when doing a chart - we need to find out about the context outside the scope of astrology.

The second observation - which some have pointed out - is that astrology provides an orientation and high probabilities rather than a fixed outcome - astrology gives Free-Will its range of options...which is a good thing, but makes it harder on us astrologers! :shock:

Basically astrology proves that there is such a thing as free-will - this is why trying to make exact prediction is usually a 50/50 chance hit - and why astrologers trying to nail exact predictions end up giving astrology a bad image (since they fail 50% of the time)...(my not so humble opinion :geek: :lol: )

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Re: Nov 12: Critiquing astrology-Responses from LinkedIn

Postby Dvora » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:33 pm

Lyn S. • Hi Dvora,
I endorse very much your first paragraphs about the passion astrologers have for their art. But I do feel that there has to be a great amount of trust before, as professionals, we share our misgivings and doubts on an open forum such as this one. Actually I have no doubts about astrology, only the way it can be or is used and my own blind sides at any given time. To doubt as a constant thing is to lose the rhythm and the strong ethos of faith within which we work. Our work will always remain somewhat shrouded in the unknown, it is the only way it can be without astrology becoming a dogma or a manipulative tool.
I am not sure that the structure is right in this informal setting for the more rigorous questions that might be posed about astrology in action. There perhaps needs to be a given balance between the text-book/academic side of things and the general appraisal of astrologers themselves/how they feel, for it to work the way you are requesting. At least among working astrologers.
Kind Regards,
Lyn
1 month ago Kjell
Kjell P. • I believe we should organize ourselves better/more. Not that easy if you don't have that many astrologers around, but hopefully in the days of social media, that will cease to be a problem.

To the extent that there are things we need to deal with, I think they will be dealt with if we seek to join and to find out what our common interests are. And even if we should find that there are not that much we need to do about ourselves or our professional stuff, in the very act of joining and working together new things, thoughts and ideas come into being.
1 month ago Kjell
Kjell P. • This is a continuation of the previous:

Astrology is what it is, but the world around it never stops changing. I think that in seeking and creating ways to interact and join around common purposes, we could release something similar to what has happened within the open source-movement.

Sharing best practices, experiences and looking for what unites us is what I want to participate in. This is a critique of astrology in the sense that I myself am unaware of what is happening along these lines. But that may be a self-critique, for it may be that I am not aware of how to proceed and wants someone else to come along with a silver platter. And it may be that I want it to be organized in a way that would be too much to ask even if we did have large rich professional bodies and academia on our side. I have a tendency to the extravagant, I'm afraid.
1 month ago Lyn
Lyn S. • Kjell, I agree with much of what you say. But the problem is whether the fulfillment of this arises as a deliberate debate or just spontaneously. A lot depends on the questions being posed or the debates being suggested and how they are phrased. Structured organization can be inhibiting to general discussion. On the other hand without it the discussions may tend to be completely abitrary to someone's interest - it may be weeks before they feel motivated to comment on a question. For e.g. I am not at all bothered whether Facebook continues to thrive or not, and when I asked if the questioner was posing the question from an 'astrological point of view' rather than a commercial one I do not believe I got a reply. For me the astrological implications can be the only possible angle on which I would wish to be involved in a discussion on his site.

Astrology is a wonderful revelation of human intent, a marvellous thing. But it can be debased and trivialized so easily. I believe that for what you want or suggest a new 'arm' or 'branch-road' is necessary here.

Best Wishes.
Lyn
1 month ago Kjell
Kjell P. • Thank you Lyn.

Yes, I see myself that there is no easy and already paved way forward for that which I wish to see. But one may always wish upon a star, right? ;)

And the answer to my wish may be extremely simple. It may be that I have found it in this very LinkedIn-group. If I remember it correctly, it was only this year it came into being, and where may it be in another year, or five?

I am not only extravagant, I am impatient too. ;)
1 month ago Lyn
Lyn S. • Kjell, having already commented to you and Dmitry both in the other discussion, I would add that you may already be starting a different branch/approach here within the Linkedin programme. I do sincerely wish you well with it.

Best,
Lyn
1 month ago Dvora
Dvora W. • Hi Lyn, hi Kjell,
Yes, I have no doubt about astrology and it's vastness. And yes, the source of most astrology's shortcomings is ours, human astrologers. When I am challenged by skeptics my answer to them is that astrology is valid, it is us astrologers who sometimes miss the picture.
So, it is because I am strongly committed to the wisdom of astrology that I feel comfortable discussing my struggle with it. I imagine that if astrology could talk back to us, it would have encouraged us to challenge "her/him/it". In the tradition I come from - Judaism - challenging the Tora/Bible, is mostly encouraged. Doing so does not take a bit from the respect and awe to the discipline.
For example: One of my frustration with astrology is that some times all the right planets were in place for an event to happen and yet, NOTHING did. So is it me? Is it human free will? Is there an asteroid I missed? I don't know. I had reading by some of "the big Kahunas" and they too missed. Why? I don't know. But yes, we tread in an unknown territories, and that may be mentioned as a frustration.
This is what I meant by critiquing astrology.
Warmly yours,
Dvora
http://www.DrDvora.com
1 month ago Lyn
Lyn S. • Dvora, I think we all struggle with it at points, if we are to sincerely understand it, and especially at the very beginning of 'getting our head around what it really is and isn't'. That is surely part of becoming proficient or worthy of it.. Your comment about things not happening when expected in line with aspects etc, is probably the nub of the question regarding the reasons why it does not stand up well to scientific research. The movements of the planets impel rather than compel and and so there are 'tendencies' which the sceptics will see as vagaries, and thereby lies the great hole in the argument.

Sincerely,
Lyn
1 month ago Dvora
Dvora W. • Hi Lyn, Yes,you wrote: The movements of the planets impel rather than compel and and so there are 'tendencies' which the sceptics will see as vagaries, and thereby lies the great hole in the argument.
I agree with you. so can we express our frustration with the fact that though we are doing the same we do not getting the same results?
1 month ago Lyn
Lyn S. • Hi Dvora, Yes, we agree on that. It is probably because the energies of the individual are merging with the energies of the planetary influence - or put another way - as individuals we receive the influence in different ways and therefore the results differ. Astrology is a two-way rhythm.
Best,
Lyn
1 month ago Kjell
Kjell P. • There is something a bit difficult in keeping a completely open discussion about astrology in a forum which is accessible to practically everyone in the world, at least if they speak English and have access to the Internet.

Open and deep conversation is often enhanced by external factors that make us feel safe, and in one sense we are now in the middle of a public square -- which does not give the same feeling of security as, say, sitting in a cosy couch at home, among friends only.

Yet, this is what we have, and though it is not "the privacy of your own home", I believe it offers us the opportunity to build together, and to grow together. Others may have experiences we have not yet had, or insights, or problems, and in dealing with such things together, we learn from one another.

I see the question for this thread as a very important one, and want to relate something I recently read elsewhere, which was an answer to someone about how to create a community of the people in a company. Perhaps surprisingly, the person who gave this answer did NOT say "make people feel at home" or "find what unites you" or "see how you can establish a common frame of reference" or something like that.

In fact, he said just the opposite. He said, in essence, that you need to bring the hard and difficult problems up and into the open, and that in the process of dealing with the matters that seem problematic at first (before solutions are agreed upon), cohesion will be found, a community will be built. Because in working hard together, we grow. When we have dealt with things together, the connections grow *deep*.

I liked this thought. Yet I most certainly believe one (and we here) should ALSO seek for unity and the establishment of harmony. And one just as certainly should not mistake provocation or being generally disruptive for "candidly bringing things out in the open".

But there is a gain, a great gain, that can be won in the process. I believe for astrologers particularly, given that unless the situation in many -- if not most -- other professions, we are very often working on our own in that we are isolated from our peers in the actual working situation. This in itself may foster strong integrity, but it also makes it easy to become isolated in different ways. Peer contacts are good in the same sense that they may help rough stones being polished into shining diamonds. We can, I am convinced beyond any doubt, learn so much from one another and from the many different ways that others do astrology. We have a Swedish word for that which has found its way into English, and using it I would say that what we have here is really a smorgasbord.

So, I did perhaps not say anything very concrete with this post, but I want to very much underline how important I believe this topic is, how important is the process it invites us to.
27 days ago Donna
Donna W. • I love astrology. And I love talking about astrology, whether to people who don't know much astrology or to astrologers. Over the past few weeks I've done dozens of party mini-readings and watched as faces alight as they glimpse astrology's possibilities. Yesterday I returned from Kansas City where I spoke about how to interact with planets creatively to foster positive life changes. I am inspired by our conversations about the magic of what we do as astrologers.

But at the same time, I am also deeply skeptical of our practice of astrology. Astrologers do what we do because we love it. But as a professional practice, we are flying almost blind.

Many of us learned astrology from books written in the past few decades and are largely unaware of the historical roots of astrology. Without a comprehension of the cultural worldview that produced astrology, we miss so much of its ancient vision. However, pointing this out to astrologers sometimes results in defensive reactions: "Of course I know what I'm doing! I've been doing it for X years" or "We have evolved and therefore only those techniques that actually work must have survived." Both of these arguments are fallacious.

We have little evidence beyond personal anecdotes that what we see in a chart is a reflection of what's actually manifesting. Science studies correlations all the time -- from weather to social behavior -- that are based on probabilities. Astrologers are intelligent, but few are actually trained in research methods and almost none have the time or resources to conduct intellectually rigorous experiments. And again, the defensive reactions: "Well, astrology is an art, so research is not relevant." Pfft. Critical thinking is always relevant.

Even more disturbing is the silence that meets this question: "Does the practice of astrology help people live lives that are happier, more successful, more prosperous or more meaningful?" Well does it? This too can be studied; psychology has numerous metrics for evaluating the question. Has anyone bothered to survey their clients as to how their lives improve with astrology consultations? Are our lives more satisfying on average than the general population for our study of astrology? Ask those questions, I dare you.

Astrologers occasionally argue whether astrology is an art or a science, or some of both. I say astrology is a religion. Religion literally means “to re-connect, to tie or bind together”; astrologers link together the cycles of heaven and earth. We are an astral priesthood, and we look to our faith in the stars to provide meaning. It’s no wonder many astrologers get defensive when our astro-fu is questioned. It is akin to suggesting to a Christian minister that Jesus (or God) is a myth or a superstition.

In our defensiveness, we’ve failed to realize that there is ample evidence that people’s lives do in fact improve when they are part of a faith community. The desire to live a meaningful life, to connect with something larger than ourselves, is a fundamental human need. Being part of a spiritual community is strongly correlated with not only happiness, but a wealth of health benefits, longevity and life satisfaction. Astrology, applied with conscious intent, could do these things too.

Astrology’s ecologically holistic vision is exactly what our world needs. A deep reverence for Nature and its cycles, plus the understanding that every life is unique and therefore precious (coupled with a willingness to behave accordingly), is an antidote to a materialistic belief system which has led to global warming, poverty and despair.

We’re needed. Let’s get busy.

namaste,
Donna

@lunalicious
http://www.fourmoonsastrology.com
26 days ago Sheri
Sheri H. • Dvora, I find it interesting that you emphasize how sometimes transits seem to predict an event but then the event does not actually occur, because i've decided--since my discovery of astrology coincided with my revelation that MY life is a matter of MY choices--that astrology provides me with the necessary tools to better understand myself. I have lately been struck by how important the meaning of each planet's placement, aspects, and rulerships are in each individual's chart because they define the actual "meaning" of that planet for each individual, but not for any other.

While i'm well aware of the archetypal range of energies of each planet and sign, i've begun to believe that their EXACT interpretations vary--perhaps only by nuance at times--from chart to chart. And if that is the case, when one understand's the precise meaning of say, Saturn in one's chart, including the kinds of lessons Saturn has to teach that particular person via house and sign placement, aspects, and house rulership, one can better grasp whether or not transits to or from a particular planet will result in an impactful time of life, or whether it will pass by silently. In other words, MY transiting Satun opposite my natal Sun may be fairly uneventful, while yours may turn your world upside down. As Michael Lutin once said, If you're a particularly Plutonic person, those Pluto transits may be just more of the same to you. But if you're primarily Cancerian or Venusian by nature, you might feel a Pluto transit comin' down the pike five or more years away. And if you're Aquarian by nature, perhaps you'll just rationalize the whole thing away in the end. I believe one's level of consciousness translates into one's sensitivity (or lack thereof) to any particular transit.

My point is that transits and progressions and solar arcs were set into motion by forces greater than ourselves, based on our karmic past, and each movement affecting a natal chart's points may have greater or lesser meaning for one individual over another, but all are part of the reason we have incarnated into this lifetime.

When we talk about what we think is frustrating abut "astrology" i'd say nothing! But--as Donna says--it's a practice based upon a belief system. "As above, so below, as within, so without" seems to make clear that astrology's main purpose is to raise one's level of consciousness, not to predict whether or not one will marry or get that job. I always say that the universe is benign and works in our best interest. So when something we perceive as "bad" happens, we know it's for a higher purpose, i.e., we don't always get what we want, but we DO always get what we need. This is not unlike many other faith based religions that place trust in a higher power. Astrology seems no different to me, except i think there's perhaps more tolerance (in general) for diversity among its practicitioners. We are a "live and let live" communicty (for the most part, a couple of very publicized disagreements notwthstanding!), and i think we like to agree to disagree in a fittingly Aquarian fashion.

Perhaps the question is not what's problematic about astrology--it's really what's up with astrologers! In other words, if we are all part of a faith based community, why argue over insignifcant thngs like the EXACT degrees of orb that validate a transit, or what house system works best? Let's agree that we honor the planets' energies, share the belief that the universe acts in our best interest, that astrology validates our lives, and allows us to recognize our growth in consciousness. How is that different from any other faith? It's only the disagreeents among astrologers that are problematic for any of us, I think...archetypes exist in all mythologies, and mythologies form the basis for all religions--therefore the fundamentals of astrology are very clear. HOW any individual astrologer applies those fundamentals might be the source of another's "frustration" with astrology!
25 days ago David
David C. • Sheri, you wrote "why argue over insignifcant thngs like the EXACT degrees of orb that validate a transit, or what house system works best?" I agree that arguing is not helpful. I love reading a paper or attending a lecture where the astrologer humbly and respectfully compares different theories (such as what the proper orbs are, or best house system) and shows how one theory works better in particular situations than other theories.
25 days ago Sheri
Sheri H. • Yes, David, I agree as well--i've learned more from reading and attending lectures by a wide variety of astrologers who espouse a wide variety of methodologies, and who also talk about what works for THEM. This may or may not work for other astrologers. Part of the point i make above about the fact that each individual chart varies in its archetypal analysis is that--because of this variation--the precise interpretation of any archetypal theme for any particular person may be different in its specifics, but is always within the range that falls under that archeypal umbrella.Therefore, we might conclude that orbs and/or house systems operate in the same way--one method may work better for one astrologer than another...
24 days ago Kjell
Kjell P. • In my opinion, a method that works for only one astrologer but not for another is not astrology in a strict sense, but tending towards divination. If we accept astrology as both an art and a science, this would come under the "art section".

But if we accept that astrology is not only a form of divination but also can reasonably be seen as a science, then what works for some and not for others does not fit in the "science section". If it works for one astrologer to see Gemini as sturdy, inflexible and never-changing, good for him, but nevertheless it will never make it into the canon. And some kind of canon does exist, though it is anyone's guess exactly what it looks like. But it is there.

And it seems to me that already in the name astroLOGY do we have an indication that it, basically, rests upon a scientific foundation, a "canon". From what I have read about the beginnings of astrology in Babylonia I have the impression that already in those times data were collected according to what we now consider scientific principles, and one compared celestial events with what happened in the country, so as to have good information when the same celestial event happened the next time.

I also believe that most astrologers think of themselves not as diviners or mediums, using the birth chart as their "tea leaves", but think of themselves as working from *principles* -- which, again, makes astrology tend toward the scientific.

I also need to say that by all means, I would not want to engender a division between the "artists" and the "scientists" of astrology -- on the contrary! I want to see BOTH sides prosper. And I believe that the artists may gain quite a lot from the work of the scientists, which can give the artists a more firm foundation for their intuitive excursions.

The artists are indeed very valuable to astrology as a whole, as what is intuition at one stage often -- if the intuition is a valid one -- becomes fact at a later stage. Visions come because something seeks to manifest, not for entertainment purposes. In some sense, they come from "the above". That is, the artists, the diviners, the intuitive ones help the science to grow, to encompass more and more. But the science must be there if it is not all going to fall apart. Without the "cookbooks" that say "this planet in that sign means X", in the end there would be no commonalities at all -- and astrology as such would suffer.

There must be a connection between these two aspects of astrology, and each astrologer has to find some point in themselves where they connect. This is really only a version of what each human must do in their lives, connect the high and abstract vision with the level of mundane realities. Choosing only one gives big words with no content, or meaningless detail without a larger purpose.

I believe if we can heal this, among ourselves, our interaction with those who do not know of or believe in astrology will also change -- and for the better. If one is in a state of balance, one can more easily respond from the center. This makes for good interactions.

But as it is, at this moment, as a collective we are not in this state of balance. We want not only the intuitive flashes of clear sight, but also the reliability and dependability that sees us through the days when the intuition is not there. We want to have a foundation to rest upon when the wings are tired.
24 days ago Lyn
Lyn S. • Hi Kjell, as someone who was taught by licentiates from the British Faculty of Astrology I know what you are alluding to. But I also know that the accusations among students then was that they tended to get too caught up in small or even petty dogmas about harmonics and mid-points etc, and many people felt that it stifled the instinct needed to perform the 'art' (as you say) of interpretation. It used to be said that the creation of a chart was the 'science' and the interpretation was the 'art'. I know quite a few research astrologers etc who can not make a chart come alive enough to connect with clients or get over the 'soul of the work' in a way which resonates with people. The science for them is more interesting. But people who are concerned with the 'art' will need to move away from the mathematics etc as quickly as possible in order to work.

I used for about ten years the 'Bible'- as it was known .. The Modern Textbook of Astrology. Written by the late Margaret E. Hone of the Faculty and published in 1951.

Thinking changes, understanding changes, the very nature of what ensouls the planets may change too for all we know. But some common denominators must remain, I agree.

Best,
Lyn
24 days ago David
David C. • Good point, Lyn. I agree. Without the ability to FEEL the astrological symbolism and to be empathic, the consultation can be flat and rather boring or uninspiring and also less accurate and helpful to the client.
24 days ago


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